Dawn: You are right, there are people in the world that are good but I think you missed the point of the video. The hole is a metaphor for life and that true freedom only comes through Christ.
If someone doesn't believe in Jesus then they aren't living a Christian life.
The bible tells us that the only way to heaven is through Him. Pure hearts or not, if you don't have Jesus in it then you won't be saved.
There is only one Jesus and He belongs to all who believe in Him. There is no YOUR Jesus.
We all have different views on Jesus, Heaven, Judgement Day, God, etc., but the bottom line is that in order for Jesus to forgive, we have to accept Him fully into our hearts. We have to follow his teachings to the best of our ability and ask Him for forgiveness when we have done wrong. If we do this during our Earthly lives, there will be no problems when we enter our Heavenly lives.
I didn't know there were express elevators UP. I supposed only the privileged have those - gee, that's not quite what Jesus had in mind!
While I agree that there certainly are people who are "good" and lead lean clean lives - that doesn't necessarily mean they will be saved. We are not saved by works, but by faith. And Jesus will forgive - but they must have faith and ask forgiveness. They need to seek him.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Sorry...I know I'm preaching to the choir, but these things pop into my head! :D
This video slags other religions and I have a problem with that. If the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, then what about people in remote places that have never or will never hear of JC?
I've gotta agree with Melissa's way of expressing this truth. It was insightful but compassionate too. It's important in discussing matters of faith that we use the correct terms. Dawn, you mention that there are "Christian" people that are more "Christian" than "Christians". I think what you're trying to express is that there are people who are more "moral" or "good" than some Christians and you're right. But the term Christian refers to "belonging to Christ and becoming Christ-like". Jesus often used the parallel of being a Christian was like being married. There is a definitive point in time where you make the commitment to say "I do" to another person, belonging to them from them on and living your life for them. Being a "Christian" is the exact same thing. AND it's a supernatural thing - the power of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within because of that commitment to Christ. But Melissa is right when she says the Bible makes it very clear - God IS loving, but He is also just - and there are consequences for what we do with His truth. Ironically, the discussion that you're having with Kate is exactly the same one that I used to have with her, and she defended the same view point just as energetically. The difference came when I encouraged her to not just "believe" her own truth, but to test it. Scripture DOES stand up to the test and it was only when Kate was willing to really delve into it that she realized the Bible does stand up to examination.... ALL of it. You can't believe the parts you like and toss out the parts you don't. Either the Bible is the living word of God, like Jesus said it was, and remains constant and ENTIRELY true for all time, or it's a bunch of cute stories from a lot of "good" guys. But the thing is, when tested against those two options, it definitely proves itself time and again to be the first. Any time you want to have a discussion about it, I'm happy to oblige... I've studies this along with most other world religions for over 25 years now. Doesn't make me the smartest guy in the world, but if you're looking to share the goal of finding truth instead of defending a viewpoint, you never know... I might be able to shed some light. Not looking to correct, just encourage. Great topic guys! And Jen. I admire and share your passion for truth, but please note it's always important to share it with compassion - not judging you either but there does seem to be a trace of sarcasm in your response. I guess the question I would ask is if you're also looking to "share the light" as we're told to do, you have to ask yourself what you would respond well to and then speak in that same way. Jesus never sought to win an argument, just a soul.
And to our visiting anonymous friend, that's a great question too. But again, the answer is in scripture and it requires a different view of the world than what the world itself teaches - what I once heard described as a "view through God's eyes". So if you're interesting in reading an answer, I can offer it in two parts. First from the Bible itself, in Romans 1... "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." In other words, God claims to make himself known to all people - if you ask any person in the world what year it is, is there anyone at all that can't tell you the answer? It's 2008... 2008 years A.D. specifically, referring to After Christ. Anyone who knows the date acknowledged that Jesus lived, which is why it sometimes amuses me (and I'm sure, makes God weep) when people argue whether Jesus really lived. Apparently an entire civilization can bear witness that He did since that's the basis for the whole Roman calendar that we still follow two thousand years later. Then there's the 2nd part that most people don't get because it's opposite to the world's teaching. The world teaches us to look out for ourselves - we're not our brother's keeper - mind our own business. But God has a different viewpoint - that the world, though made up on millions of special individual parts, is still one body - and we ARE our brother's keeper. On a small scale, if you saw your child being beaten up outside your door, wouldn't you step in to help? Taking the next step, if you knew your neighbour was starving, wouldn't you offer some food? And finally, if you saw a child you didn't even know, about to cross a dangerous road with their eyes closed, because they didn't seem to know better. wouldn't you stop them? The problem is that we limit that outlook to what we directly see - God doesn't. We have no problem with people spreading the message of energy conservation, or the dangers of global warming, or a message of loving one another and end wars, to the entire world because we recognize and respect that those are valid dangers and convictions. But because we may not like the message of Jesus' salvation, the key to life beyond this one, then we become indignant, even ignorant - I'm not asking anyone to just blindly fall into line - I didn't. I wasn't raised to believe these things. But as a young man I quested for truth passionately, and found that Christianity is just something that sounds nice, it's also the only one that actually stands up to examination. But that's a much longer story. The point is, that if we burn our hand, and don't do anything about it, we can't be surprised if infection sets in and we lose the hand - that's our own fault. Well in the "body" of the world, if we know a part of the body is injured, or withering away due to neglect, we are just as responsible as a whole for doing something about that. Otherwise it is partially due to US that it withers and dies. If people who live in "remote parts" of the world never get to hear about Christ, it's not because God didn't provide a means for them to do so, it's because that mean, the messengers of His word, decided they would rather sit in and watch American Idol (interesting the name... Idol) than do the job assigned to them by Jesus himself.... from Matthew 28 in the New Testament... "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." If a parent was too lazy to get off their ass and feed their own child, we wouldn't blame God, we'd blame the parent. But when the "neighbours"... WORLDwide, that God put in our care starve, either physically or spiritually, then suddenly it's because God doesn't care.... doesn't quite make sense, does it?
Final story.... (can you tell I'm passionate about my faith - sorry if that offends anyone but I'm always open to conversation)..
I love this story because I think it clearly shows how when our world - either globally or just in our own home, becomes a "living Hell", that maybe this can often tell us why... and the same goes for when it becomes "heavenly".
Heaven and Hell.... The story is told of a godly man, who always sought to live not just a good life, but a holy one, dedicated to God. In his later years, God appeared to the man, praising him for his years of service and offering to grant him any one request. The man said he would like to be able to see both heaven and hell, if only to see the incredible difference. Immediately God whisked them to hell. The first thing the man noticed was the overwhelming noise... screaming and wailing of all sorts. Upon opening his eyes to the bedlam, he saw an incredibly strange sight. A banquet table was before him, stretching as far as the eye could see. The table was loaded with the most delicious foods anyone could imagine, hardly what you would expect to see in hell. But seated on both sides of the table were all the residents of hell, screaming endlessly and everyone looking like they were on the verge of dying again, but this time because of starvation. You see every person had one radical change to their appearance. They all had 6 food arms stretched out before them, with no elbows, and a fork permanently clasped in each hand. But being unable to bend their arm, they weren't able to eat a single bite of the banquet before them, thus providing endless torture. The man asked to see no more- it was too difficult to watch! God immediately whisked them away, this time to heaven, where the man saw an even stranger sight. Because in heaven was the exact same scenario - banquet table, 6 foot unbending arms, and food galore. But in heaven, every person was laughing, praising God, enjoying themselves heartily and looking very well-fed. The difference? In heaven, each person, instead of thinking only of themselves, simply fed the person across the table from them. The difference wasn't the situation, it was the attitude of those within it. How much of your own current happiness or unhappiness is not, upon examination, because of the situation, but because of your attitude within it? Noah was mocked, David was traded into slavery, John was thrown into prison, and yet they always remained obedient and hopeful, praising God. Jesus himself, bleeding on a cross, tortured with vinegar and a crown of thorns, said "Forgive them". So how bad is YOUR situation, compared to that? LOL - boy - I really love to "talk" a lot.... I should get my own blog going again.
EDIT Ooops - couple of typos in my first two responses - sorry ladies....
The only one worth actually correcting is when I said "the Bible is just a bunch of cute stories..." That should read "the Bible ISN'T just a bunch of cute stories". Why doesn't blogspot offer editing after the fact.... AWWWWKWARD!
WOW Ian! You have a wealth of knowledge! It's fantastic...one can tell that you truly have studied and given a lot of thought and passion to this subject. :) I've enjoyed reading your comments!!
Look at you embedding videos and posting pictures on your blog! You're becoming a pro! :)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJen: I told you, I am full of surprises!
ReplyDeleteDawn: You are right, there are people in the world that are good but I think you missed the point of the video. The hole is a metaphor for life and that true freedom only comes through Christ.
If someone doesn't believe in Jesus then they aren't living a Christian life.
The bible tells us that the only way to heaven is through Him. Pure hearts or not, if you don't have Jesus in it then you won't be saved.
Just sayin'.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThere is only one Jesus and He belongs to all who believe in Him. There is no YOUR Jesus.
ReplyDeleteWe all have different views on Jesus, Heaven, Judgement Day, God, etc., but the bottom line is that in order for Jesus to forgive, we have to accept Him fully into our hearts. We have to follow his teachings to the best of our ability and ask Him for forgiveness when we have done wrong. If we do this during our Earthly lives, there will be no problems when we enter our Heavenly lives.
I didn't know there were express elevators UP. I supposed only the privileged have those - gee, that's not quite what Jesus had in mind!
Very thought-provoking video!
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that there certainly are people who are "good" and lead lean clean lives - that doesn't necessarily mean they will be saved. We are not saved by works, but by faith. And Jesus will forgive - but they must have faith and ask forgiveness. They need to seek him.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Sorry...I know I'm preaching to the choir, but these things pop into my head! :D
Melissa: thank you :-)
ReplyDeleteThis video slags other religions and I have a problem with that. If the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, then what about people in remote places that have never or will never hear of JC?
ReplyDeleteI've gotta agree with Melissa's way of expressing this truth. It was insightful but compassionate too. It's important in discussing matters of faith that we use the correct terms. Dawn, you mention that there are "Christian" people that are more "Christian" than "Christians". I think what you're trying to express is that there are people who are more "moral" or "good" than some Christians and you're right. But the term Christian refers to "belonging to Christ and becoming Christ-like". Jesus often used the parallel of being a Christian was like being married. There is a definitive point in time where you make the commitment to say "I do" to another person, belonging to them from them on and living your life for them. Being a "Christian" is the exact same thing. AND it's a supernatural thing - the power of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within because of that commitment to Christ. But Melissa is right when she says the Bible makes it very clear - God IS loving, but He is also just - and there are consequences for what we do with His truth. Ironically, the discussion that you're having with Kate is exactly the same one that I used to have with her, and she defended the same view point just as energetically. The difference came when I encouraged her to not just "believe" her own truth, but to test it. Scripture DOES stand up to the test and it was only when Kate was willing to really delve into it that she realized the Bible does stand up to examination.... ALL of it. You can't believe the parts you like and toss out the parts you don't. Either the Bible is the living word of God, like Jesus said it was, and remains constant and ENTIRELY true for all time, or it's a bunch of cute stories from a lot of "good" guys. But the thing is, when tested against those two options, it definitely proves itself time and again to be the first. Any time you want to have a discussion about it, I'm happy to oblige... I've studies this along with most other world religions for over 25 years now. Doesn't make me the smartest guy in the world, but if you're looking to share the goal of finding truth instead of defending a viewpoint, you never know... I might be able to shed some light.
ReplyDeleteNot looking to correct, just encourage. Great topic guys! And Jen. I admire and share your passion for truth, but please note it's always important to share it with compassion - not judging you either but there does seem to be a trace of sarcasm in your response. I guess the question I would ask is if you're also looking to "share the light" as we're told to do, you have to ask yourself what you would respond well to and then speak in that same way. Jesus never sought to win an argument, just a soul.
Just my thoughts ladies - blessings to all!
And to our visiting anonymous friend, that's a great question too. But again, the answer is in scripture and it requires a different view of the world than what the world itself teaches - what I once heard described as a "view through God's eyes". So if you're interesting in reading an answer, I can offer it in two parts. First from the Bible itself, in Romans 1...
ReplyDelete"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."
In other words, God claims to make himself known to all people - if you ask any person in the world what year it is, is there anyone at all that can't tell you the answer? It's 2008... 2008 years A.D. specifically, referring to After Christ. Anyone who knows the date acknowledged that Jesus lived, which is why it sometimes amuses me (and I'm sure, makes God weep) when people argue whether Jesus really lived. Apparently an entire civilization can bear witness that He did since that's the basis for the whole Roman calendar that we still follow two thousand years later.
Then there's the 2nd part that most people don't get because it's opposite to the world's teaching. The world teaches us to look out for ourselves - we're not our brother's keeper - mind our own business. But God has a different viewpoint - that the world, though made up on millions of special individual parts, is still one body - and we ARE our brother's keeper. On a small scale, if you saw your child being beaten up outside your door, wouldn't you step in to help? Taking the next step, if you knew your neighbour was starving, wouldn't you offer some food? And finally, if you saw a child you didn't even know, about to cross a dangerous road with their eyes closed, because they didn't seem to know better. wouldn't you stop them? The problem is that we limit that outlook to what we directly see - God doesn't. We have no problem with people spreading the message of energy conservation, or the dangers of global warming, or a message of loving one another and end wars, to the entire world because we recognize and respect that those are valid dangers and convictions. But because we may not like the message of Jesus' salvation, the key to life beyond this one, then we become indignant, even ignorant - I'm not asking anyone to just blindly fall into line - I didn't. I wasn't raised to believe these things. But as a young man I quested for truth passionately, and found that Christianity is just something that sounds nice, it's also the only one that actually stands up to examination. But that's a much longer story. The point is, that if we burn our hand, and don't do anything about it, we can't be surprised if infection sets in and we lose the hand - that's our own fault. Well in the "body" of the world, if we know a part of the body is injured, or withering away due to neglect, we are just as responsible as a whole for doing something about that. Otherwise it is partially due to US that it withers and dies. If people who live in "remote parts" of the world never get to hear about Christ, it's not because God didn't provide a means for them to do so, it's because that mean, the messengers of His word, decided they would rather sit in and watch American Idol (interesting the name... Idol) than do the job assigned to them by Jesus himself.... from Matthew 28 in the New Testament...
"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
If a parent was too lazy to get off their ass and feed their own child, we wouldn't blame God, we'd blame the parent. But when the "neighbours"... WORLDwide, that God put in our care starve, either physically or spiritually, then suddenly it's because God doesn't care.... doesn't quite make sense, does it?
Final story.... (can you tell I'm passionate about my faith - sorry if that offends anyone but I'm always open to conversation)..
ReplyDeleteI love this story because I think it clearly shows how when our world - either globally or just in our own home, becomes a "living Hell", that maybe this can often tell us why... and the same goes for when it becomes "heavenly".
Heaven and Hell....
The story is told of a godly man, who always sought to live not just a good life, but a holy one, dedicated to God. In his later years, God appeared to the man, praising him for his years of service and offering to grant him any one request. The man said he would like to be able to see both heaven and hell, if only to see the incredible difference.
Immediately God whisked them to hell. The first thing the man noticed was the overwhelming noise... screaming and wailing of all sorts. Upon opening his eyes to the bedlam, he saw an incredibly strange sight. A banquet table was before him, stretching as far as the eye could see. The table was loaded with the most delicious foods anyone could imagine, hardly what you would expect to see in hell. But seated on both sides of the table were all the residents of hell, screaming endlessly and everyone looking like they were on the verge of dying again, but this time because of starvation. You see every person had one radical change to their appearance. They all had 6 food arms stretched out before them, with no elbows, and a fork permanently clasped in each hand. But being unable to bend their arm, they weren't able to eat a single bite of the banquet before them, thus providing endless torture. The man asked to see no more- it was too difficult to watch! God immediately whisked them away, this time to heaven, where the man saw an even stranger sight. Because in heaven was the exact same scenario - banquet table, 6 foot unbending arms, and food galore. But in heaven, every person was laughing, praising God, enjoying themselves heartily and looking very well-fed. The difference? In heaven, each person, instead of thinking only of themselves, simply fed the person across the table from them. The difference wasn't the situation, it was the attitude of those within it.
How much of your own current happiness or unhappiness is not, upon examination, because of the situation, but because of your attitude within it? Noah was mocked, David was traded into slavery, John was thrown into prison, and yet they always remained obedient and hopeful, praising God. Jesus himself, bleeding on a cross, tortured with vinegar and a crown of thorns, said "Forgive them". So how bad is YOUR situation, compared to that?
LOL - boy - I really love to "talk" a lot.... I should get my own blog going again.
EDIT
ReplyDeleteOoops - couple of typos in my first two responses - sorry ladies....
The only one worth actually correcting is when I said "the Bible is just a bunch of cute stories..."
That should read "the Bible ISN'T just a bunch of cute stories".
Why doesn't blogspot offer editing after the fact.... AWWWWKWARD!
WOW Ian! You have a wealth of knowledge! It's fantastic...one can tell that you truly have studied and given a lot of thought and passion to this subject. :) I've enjoyed reading your comments!!
ReplyDeleteIan, you're the one that is cute, not the bible! :)
ReplyDeleteThank you for all the information you posted. It is wonderful to see people who are passionate about their faith!
Ian,
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed reading your comments and thank you for that. I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who had faith.
I wish that you did have a blog. I enjoy your writing style and I think you speak from a very well-educated standpoint.
Sorry, that should read "anyone who HAS faith"!
ReplyDelete